From Journalism to Law: Dawn Johnson's Journey, Attorney, UB Greensfelder

Summary

In this conversation, Christopher Swing interviews Dawn Johnson, an accomplished attorney and former journalism major, about her journey from Eastern Illinois University to a successful legal career. Dawn reflects on her experiences as a student, the impact of personal tragedy on her career choices, and her leadership style in the legal field. She discusses the challenges of merging law firms and the importance of maintaining a strong organizational culture. Throughout the conversation, Dawn emphasizes the role of faith and compassion in her leadership approach, highlighting how her upbringing and experiences have shaped her values and decision-making. In this conversation, Dawn Johnson and Christopher Swing discuss the significance of mentorship in the legal field, the importance of delegation and teamwork, and provide valuable advice for young lawyers. They emphasize the need for community engagement and personal passion, while also navigating the ethical challenges faced in law. The discussion culminates in reflections on legacy and the impact one can have in their community.

Takeaways

Dawn Johnson emphasizes the importance of relationships formed during her time at EIU.
Personal tragedy can serve as a catalyst for significant career changes.
The skills learned in journalism are applicable in law, especially in asking tough questions.
Leadership requires advocating for those who may not speak up for themselves.
Maintaining organizational culture is crucial during mergers.
Transparency and communication are key in leadership during transitions.
Adapting to change is a continuous process in any organization.
Faith and compassion play a significant role in Dawn's leadership style.
Recognizing the importance of people in decision-making is essential for success.
Leadership styles can evolve as one gains experience and success.  Mentorship is crucial for success in law.
Delegation enhances team collaboration and effectiveness.
Young lawyers should focus on making themselves indispensable.
Community engagement can reignite personal passion.
Navigating ethical challenges is a constant in law.
Surrounding yourself with smarter individuals fosters growth.
Passion projects can lead to unexpected opportunities.
Maintaining integrity is essential in a gray legal landscape.
Legacy is built through service and compassion.
Personal experiences shape leadership and community involvement.

Keywords

Dawn Johnson, law, journalism, leadership, EIU, personal tragedy, law firm merger, faith, career path, student exp

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Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction and Background
• 0:54 The Evolution of Student Experience
• 2:57 Dawn's Journey in Journalism
• 5:32 Transition to Law School
• 7:41 The Impact of Personal Tragedy
• 10:02 Merging Journalism and Law
• 12:51 Leadership in Law Firms
• 15:46 Navigating Firm Mergers
• 24:37 Building Successful Partnerships
• 26:12 Navigating Cultural Changes in Mergers
• 27:57 Expecting the Unexpected in M&A
• 29:07 Overcoming Operational Challenges
• 32:35 The Role of Faith in Leadership
• 34:49 Evolving Leadership Styles
• 41:13 Advice for Aspiring Leaders
• 46:53 Transformative Experiences in Community Service
• 48:52 The Value of Networking and Community Involvement
• 51:17 Challenges and Growth in Nonprofit Leadership
• 54:56 Navigating Ethics in a Gray Legal World
• 1:00:52 Legacy of Compassion and Service

Transcript

Christopher Swing (00:00)
Welcome to Faithful, the podcast where we explore the intersection of leadership, faith, and impact. I'm your host, Christopher Swing, president and CEO of Vantage Surgical Solutions. Through thoughtful conversations with business leaders, missionaries, and change makers, we uncover the principles that guide their work and connect them to timeless wisdom. In season one, we're diving into the foundational organizations and experiences that shape my own leadership journey. Whether you're a leader in business,

faith or your community, this conversation is packed with inspiration and practical wisdom. Thank you for joining me on this journey of discovering how faith and leadership intersect in meaningful ways. Let's dive into the episode.

Dawn Johnson (00:44)
So welcome back to Faithful and today I have with me Don Johnson.

Christopher Swing (00:44)
So welcome back to Faithful. And today I have with me Dawn Johnson.

And Dawn is my attorney for Vantage and a good friend. We got connected because of her receiving a Distinguished Alumn Award at Eastern. And I got to introduce her to the dinner, which is always exciting. And I just really enjoy that part of the experience with Distinguished Alums.

Dawn Johnson (00:54)
We got connected because of her receiving a Distinguisher Award at Eastern, and I got to introduce her to the Denver, was exciting.

really enjoy that part of the

I got to listen to her story and my hope is that she can share a little bit that with you.

Christopher Swing (01:09)
I got to listen to her story and my hope is that she can share a little bit of that with you

and it will be motivating. So welcome, Dawn. Thank you, Chris. I appreciate the opportunity to be here this afternoon with you and your audience. So let's start at EIU since that's kind of where we're connected at. part of my conversation with Jay, which just published and you haven't had a chance to listen to yet, is

Dawn Johnson (01:18)
Thank you, Chris. I appreciate the opportunity to be here this afternoon with you and your audience. So let's start at EIU since that's kind of where we're connected.

Christopher Swing (01:39)
how the student experience has changed dramatically over the years. And further than that, I explained to him that maybe it doesn't really matter because the affinity is really what's important. And so maybe they're getting exactly what they want. But I go back to my time and I know that my experience on campus was a lot different than what the students, especially through COVID had had. What was your experience at EIU?

Dawn Johnson (01:39)
the student experience has changed dramatically over the further than that, I explained to him that maybe it doesn't really matter because the affinity is really what's important. And so maybe they're getting exactly what they want. But I go back to my time. I know that my experience on campus was a lot different than what the students, especially through COVID, had. What was your experience at Yale? Well, I'm not sure

how much it's

Christopher Swing (02:08)
it's

Dawn Johnson (02:08)
changed over

Christopher Swing (02:08)
changed their

Dawn Johnson (02:09)
time. And since I'm re-engaged with campus now and get to talk to the President, Jay, and others through my board service, I think the things that made Eastern standouts are still true. And that's what I remember from my days at Eastern are the relationships that I had at Eastern and continue to this day. The folks that I hung around with and

Christopher Swing (02:11)
since I'm re-engaged with campus now and get to talk to.

Dawn Johnson (02:33)
and

my professors and my advisors in the journalism department there are still my friends today. And I think that's what really sticks out in my mind about my days in Eastern. I would say I didn't live through COVID during my undergrad, but I think the relationships, that was one of the unique things I've liked about Eastern Illinois and going there. The people that...

were important during my days at Eastern are important in my life today. I'm still good friends with them. We have our own private Facebook group. We see each other. We have reunions at Eastern. And I just really have great memories of being at Eastern, the small class size. And of course, that was the launching of my first career. So let's talk about that. So you started out as a journalism major at Eastern Illinois.

Christopher Swing (03:16)
So let's talk about that. So you started out as a journalism major at Eastern Illinois University

Dawn Johnson (03:21)
and

Christopher Swing (03:21)
and you are a partner at UB Greensfelder in St. Louis here. So obviously there was some meandering along the way to get you to there. Can you tell us a story about that?

Dawn Johnson (03:30)
Well,

wasn't it wasn't really meandering I'll correct you on that but I I do want to I do want to point out that I had this great really great experience at Eastern I had the

opportunity to work on what was then a daily print newspaper, which was really just an unbelievable experience and prepare me to be a real journalist. I mean, we felt like we were journalists because we were because we were putting out a daily newspaper every day. was published on site. That's really where I have for my first taste of leadership was I started out as a reporter and then I became an editor. And so I had reporters working under me who reported to me, but I was part of a bigger team.

and that was really the entire newspaper staff is also the team of editors who met every day to talk about what the paper the next day was going to look like. And we were very well read. I had a lot of interesting experiences as a reporter. I learned a lot through my work on the newspaper there. And that really did launch me. I got my degree in journalism.

both my newspaper advisor Dave Reed and one of my all time favorite professors Dan Thorberg who is now deceased.

wrote recommendations for me. got an internship at a newspaper in central Illinois, the Decatur Herald & Review. I served an internship there. They liked me so much. They hired me to be a stringer during my last semester at Eastern. So I got to cover city council news and that sort of thing. And actually you see my name published in what I again call real newspaper. And then they hired me based on recommendations in my work.

over the summer they hired me as a full-time newspaper reporter and I did that for seven years. So as life does things happen in people's lives and my brother was killed unfortunately in a car accident at the age of 21. We're only 15 months apart so we're very very close and you know

Jerry got to see me become a reporter and

was able to enjoy some of my success. But as things happen, and I love my job as a reporter, I really liked what I was doing. I got exposed to all kinds of different areas. I covered the police department. I covered the courts, covered city government, state government, the schools, pretty much every beat, as we called them. I got to cover for the newspaper. So I got a broad range of experience doing

those sorts of things. As time went on, I think when you have a tragic death like that, that by the way, Jerry was my only sibling. have no other siblings. So

I was trying to help my mom and dad through this horrendous thing that had happened. No parent should ever have to bury a child. But I was trying to help them through that, recognized I have my own problems with grief and was trying to help them not focusing on myself. We got involved in an organization that I wrote about in the Herald and Review called the Compassion of Friends, which is an organization for bereaved parents and siblings. Got them involved with that. Actually became a leader

and that organization got on the national board. But as time went on, I started reexamining my life and what I wanted to do with my life. And there was an important event that actually happened with my brother's death that he was in a vehicle with two other friends and the driver was...

intoxicated and so he was being prosecuted for reckless homicide. And there were what what actually happened was we didn't find out until literally the courthouse steps that the state's attorney the local state's attorney was negotiating a plea agreement with the driver.

that he would get off basically the equivalent of a traffic ticket is kind what I would say.

that really stopped me in my tracks. thought, you know, things have to be different. They have to be better than that. Victims have to have some say in what happens when these horrific things happen in their lives. And we just you know, we weren't consulted. We were literally told it last night. And I think my mother actually was like going up the stairs at the courthouse when the state's attorney was walking down from the courtroom. And that's really what sticks in my mind about this terrible

terrible

experience. And so I thought, you know, I can do better than that. And that really was one of the important factors in why I decided to go to law school. As I mentioned, I had also been covering the courts and the police and was really enjoyed those things that I was reporting on and opportunity to do that. And so I thought, you know, I'm going to go to law school. And it was a huge decision, obviously, for me. I had been working for seven years at a job I really loved.

And I thought, gosh, now I got to go from having a paying job. I was still paying my student loans back for Eastern. And I'm now going to go into debt again on top of my coupons that I pay every month for my loan at Eastern. So quitting my job and having no income was a little scary, but I have fabulous parents who helped me.

and always supported every decision I made and were 100 % supportive in that and so I

enrolled and got into Washington University School of Law here in St. Louis and moved down to St. Louis and this is where I've been ever since. And so that was sort of the impetus for me going to law school. It really was a life-changing event that caused that. And I've really never looked back. I guess the bottom line is I never,

grew up thinking I'm going to be a lawyer. In fact, when I went to Eastern, I thought I was going to be a social worker. And then I pivoted and said, now I'm going to be a journalist. I'd always had an interest in writing. I wrote for the newspaper at my junior high school in Decatur, Illinois. I was the editor in chief of my paper in high school. And so I had this writing background. My mom actually, when I was getting the distinguished alumni award at Eastern, found a picture of me when I was two years old sitting on the

couch with a newspaper around me. So I guess I knew from age two that I was going to be a journalist. But the funny thing is that I did not abandon my journalism background when I became a lawyer because people always ask me, how did you do the transition? I said it really wasn't that difficult. Once you get past the three years of law school and all the reading that you have to do,

everything I learned at Eastern and as a journalist applies exactly to what I do today. I mean, I interview witnesses. I investigate facts, allegations that the other side makes in my cases. I'm a litigator. I search for the truth. I did that as a journalist.

It's a little bit different because as a journalist, you have to be objective and present both sides. As a lawyer, I advocate for my client, obviously, but it's very important for me to still find out all the facts, the good, the bad, and the ugly, as I say, for my client, because as a lawyer, we have ethical obligations to present the truth, no matter what it is, whether it's in favor of my client or not. Those are the facts that need to be put forth before the court so that the right, the judge or the jury can make the correct decision.

And that's what I believe in. And I'm sometimes a little direct with my clients, but I'm like, I need to know the bad stuff, guys, or girls, as the case may be. I'd rather learn about the bad facts. Every case has a bad fact. I'd rather learn about it now so that I can deal with it. I don't want to hear about it at your deposition or at trial. And so the two careers have really

meshed well together and I always go back to my foundation in Eastern as really how important that was to what I do today.

Christopher Swing (11:01)
So I mean, I think one of the things that I recognize that's different in a lot of successful people, and I think you just heard it, is you recognize an injustice and you could have complained about it and you could have been upset about it,

but instead you said, I'm going to do something about it. And I think that's one of the things that I see in a lot of my successful friends is that the difference between the person who steps in the background and

Dawn Johnson (11:12)
Right,

Christopher Swing (11:26)
drops a note on Facebook that makes everybody really excited and the person who makes a difference. And it's really about action because, you know, there's, there's rarely a positive outcome that comes

from inaction. so, well, that was a, that was kind of a crazy story and I've heard it before, but it's still bone chilling. so it also sounded to me like, you felt like you were extremely well-prepared at Eastern for both.

Dawn Johnson (11:45)
So it also sounded to me you felt like you were extremely welcome here at Eastern.

Christopher Swing (11:53)
kind of adventurers, right? Like you felt like the preparation for the journalism side was good. It sounds like you had great success there before you were challenged to do something different. And then having that base of knowledge and experience when you went to law school, doesn't seem like that hurt you either. That's right. And I felt like I had a very good base at Eastern.

Dawn Johnson (11:55)
the preparation for the journalism side was good. It sounds like you had great success Before you were challenged to do something different.

That's right. And, you know, I had I felt like I had a very good base at Eastern.

Looking back now as a I guess some people call me a business lawyer. I represent a lot of businesses.

Christopher Swing (12:18)
Looking back now as a, I guess some people probably a business lawyer are representing a lot of businesses.

I didn't kind of go off on the tangent of why I become a prosecutor because I did look into that. Sure. Because I really thought that was my calling. But I ended up here my firm, Greenscoulder, as it was called. And this is where I've been for past 28 did work for a federal judge for four years at a law school. But when I look back and I tell people now they're considering

Dawn Johnson (12:26)
I didn't kind of go off on the tangent of why I didn't become a prosecutor because I did look into that because I really thought that was my calling. But I ended up here at my firm, Greenspelder, as it was called.

this is where I've been for the past 28 years. I did work for a federal judge for four years out of law school. when I look back and I tell people now if they're

Christopher Swing (12:51)
going into law at some point that I wish I would have taken more business classes, for example. I took a few at Eastern, but not a lot.

Dawn Johnson (12:51)
going into law at some point that I wish I would have taken more business classes, for example. I took a few at Eastern, but not a lot. But the great thing about journalism is it really does prepare you, think, for any

Christopher Swing (12:57)
But the great thing about journalism is it really does prepare you, think, for anything

Dawn Johnson (13:02)
thing that you want to do in life because you you learn how to ask tough questions. And I think that's been an important part of my role as a leader in the various organizations I've been involved with is being able to ask people tough questions. And I learned that at Eastern. And then, of course, as a lawyer, I have to ask a lot of tough questions of my own clients and then of, you know, the opposing party and being able to do that

Christopher Swing (13:02)
that you want to do in life because you learn how to ask tough questions. And I think that's been an important part of my role as a leader in the various organizations I've been involved with is being able to ask people tough questions. And I learned that at Eastern. And then, of course, as a lawyer, I have to ask a lot of tough questions at my own clients and then at the opposing party. And being able to do that.

and not be afraid to ask the tough questions or to take the tough

Dawn Johnson (13:26)
and not be afraid to ask the tough questions or to take the tough position.

things that I learned at Eastern.

Christopher Swing (13:30)
things that I want at Eastern. I want to kind of transition into your leadership in the law firm here. first of all, maybe before we get into that, obviously you became a lawyer. You were obviously very good at what you did.

Dawn Johnson (13:41)
First of all, maybe before we get into that, obviously you became a lawyer, you were obviously very good at what you did.

Chris (13:49)
Faithful is proudly sponsored by Vantage Surgical Solutions, where excellence meets innovation in advanced healthcare solutions. With a foundation built on integrity, creativity, and commitment, Vantage empowers leaders to shape the future, just as we explore leadership through faith on the podcast. Vantage Surgical Solutions, standing for excellence, leading advanced healthcare solutions.

Christopher Swing (14:19)
How do you make it to the leadership committee? Like, what does that process look like? Did you just win a couple of really big cases? Did, you know, how do you transcend the masses, right?

Dawn Johnson (14:32)
looking back now, this is my 28th year. I was 27 years at Greensfelder. This will be actually February 1 is the one year anniversary of our merger. But I still look at it all as 28 years at, at Greensfelder. it was a goal that I had set for myself some time ago that I wanted to be on the board of directors for the, for the law firm.

Christopher Swing (14:32)
Looking back is my 28th year. I was 27 years at Greenspelder. This will be, actually, February 1 is one year anniversary of our merger. But I still look at it all as 28 years at was a goal that I had set for myself some time ago, that I wanted to be on the board of directors for the law firm.

And it seemed like maybe an impossible feat to me at some point are there are only a few people that are on the board and they you those are you just think well those are the leaders of the firm and I'm not one of them and how am I going to achieve that and I did set that as my goal and quite frankly I tried a couple times and make it was interviewed by the nominating committee were chosen but I

Dawn Johnson (14:52)
And it seemed like maybe an impossible feat to me at some point because.

you know, there are there are only a few people that are on the board and they, know, those are you just think, well, those are the leaders of the firm and I'm not one of them. And how am I going to achieve that? And I did set that as my goal. And quite frankly, I tried a couple of times and didn't make it. I was interviewed by the nominating committee and others were chosen, but I kept

Christopher Swing (15:21)
I one of the things that

Dawn Johnson (15:21)
trying and again, made it my goal. And I think one of the things that.

I tried to set myself apart from when I was seeking to get on the board of directors was I view myself as the spokesperson for the minority and

Christopher Swing (15:27)
I tried to set myself apart from when I was seeking to get on the board of directors was view myself as the spokesperson for the mind.

Dawn Johnson (15:38)
There are a lot of people in whatever organization you're in the law firm or other nonprofits that I've been involved with over the years who

Christopher Swing (15:38)
There are lot of people in whatever organization you're in, law firm or other nonprofits that I've been involved with over the years who

have strong opinions about things, but they're not willing to step up and speak about them. And so people would come to me and complain about different things. often felt like that was my role.

Dawn Johnson (15:46)
have strong opinions about things, but they're not willing to step up and speak about them. And so people would come to me and complain about different things. I often felt like that was my role

was to be the person who would speak up for those who were not willing to speak up for themselves. And sometimes that is the minority where they feel like their opinions don't count. And so I wanted to make sure that those opinions were at least made known to the the board leadership. I saw that as my role. And I also saw my role as somebody

Christopher Swing (15:56)
was to be the person who would speak up for those who were not willing to speak up for themselves. And sometimes that is the minority where they feel that their opinions don't count. And so I wanted to make sure that those opinions were at least made known to the board leadership. I saw that as my role. And I also saw my role as somebody

Dawn Johnson (16:13)
who

Christopher Swing (16:14)
who would push back and ask the tough questions. And again, that turns us right back to Mr. Wright. And my skills as a reporter, asking tough questions and not just rubber stamping decisions that may

Dawn Johnson (16:14)
would push back and ask the tough questions. And again, that traces right back to Eastern, right? And my skills as a reporter, asking tough questions and not just rubber stamping decisions, that may seem like the popular choice. And I think you have to have those kinds of people on whatever organization that you're involved with because that's how you really, I think, make decisions and make the right decisions.

Christopher Swing (16:25)
seem like the popular choice. And I think you have to have those kinds of people on whatever organization or that you're involved with because that's how you really, I think, make decisions and make the right decisions.

Dawn Johnson (16:43)
So.

Christopher Swing (16:44)
you know, we're in the UB Greensfelder office in downtown St. Louis on the 20th floor.

looking out over the beautiful city of San Luis with a little bit of snow on the ground. And you know, you've been part of a very successful firm here. you were part of the board at the time in which that decision was made. Give us a little bit of insight.

Dawn Johnson (17:04)
you were part of the board at the time in which that decision was made. Give us a little bit of insight.

Christopher Swing (17:11)
and obviously what you can tell us or what that decision process is like when you're in a successful firm. Like this wasn't a pressure situation. It was more of a transcending who you are kind of thing from my understanding. And so, you know, what are the processes that you go through and trying to date to find that ideal firm to really partner up with and, and what was that process like?

Dawn Johnson (17:27)
What are the processes that you go through in trying to date?

And then

Christopher Swing (17:39)
And then kind of you mentioned it, know, there's an emotional attachment, right, in our careers to the organizations in which we work with. And so, you know, how do you adapt to a new organization that's much bigger and broader and robust? Okay, so that's a

Dawn Johnson (17:39)
kind of you mentioned it, know, there's an emotional attachment, right, in our careers to organizations in which we work with. And know, how do you adapt to a new organization that's much greater and broader and robust? Okay, so that's a lot. And so I'm probably going to speak for a few minutes on that.

Christopher Swing (18:00)
for a few minutes. Sure.

As I said, I've been at Greensboro slash UB Greensboro for 28 years and thinking and so I am I believe when we voted on this that I was the person on the board with the longest tenure in Greensboro. And. During that time span that I've been at the firm, I remember there had been two significant events.

Dawn Johnson (18:02)
As I said, I've been at Greensfelder slash UB Greensfelder for 28 years and thinking, and so I believe when we voted on this that I was the person on the board with the longest tenure at Greensfelder. And during that time span that I've been at the firm, I remember there have been two significant events.

The first one,

was in 2019 when our CEO and President Tim Thornton was killed in a bicycle accident. It was tragic. We had never faced anything like that ever before, to suddenly have your leader who was respected, well-liked. I mean, just, you know, I can't say enough good things about Tim.

Christopher Swing (18:36)
It was tragic. was we had never faced anything like that ever before. To suddenly have your leader who was respected, well liked. I mean, just, you know, I can't say enough good things about him to

Dawn Johnson (18:49)
to be killed and having to deal with the aftermath of that and then choosing a new leader for the firm. And that was very difficult.

Christopher Swing (18:50)
be killed. then this and having to deal with the aftermath of that and then choosing a new leader for the firm. And that was very difficult.

The second event which was transformative was the decision to merge with Homer Boone. And we had over the past previous years, when Tim was alive, our previous CEO, explored several options for mergers. And this has sort of always been in the back of our mind. And then it was put on hold.

Dawn Johnson (18:58)
The second event which was transformative was the decision to merge with Ulmerberg. And we had over the past previous years, when Tim was alive, our previous CEO, explored several options for mergers. And this has sort of always been in the back of our mind. And then it was put on hold,

obviously, when Tim died.

Christopher Swing (19:22)
obviously, we didn't

Dawn Johnson (19:24)
we didn't, that was not important at that time. Then of course we had COVID. And so there were a lot of like moving parts.

Christopher Swing (19:25)
that was important at that time. And then of course we had COVID. And so there were a lot of moving parts.

Dawn Johnson (19:35)
The legal industry is completely, you it's changing and you see these mega mergers and you see the bigger and bigger and bigger firms. And so in order to thrive and survive, know, law firms, they have to grow.

Christopher Swing (19:35)
the legal industry is changing and you see these mega mergers and see bigger and bigger and bigger firms. And so in order to thrive and survive, law firms, they have to grow

Dawn Johnson (19:52)
and or you die right now

Christopher Swing (19:54)
or you die, right?

Yeah, since I've been at Greenspelder when I joined here in 1997, think it was, we had 65 attorneys and then right pre merger. I think we were we were somewhere between 150 to 165.

Dawn Johnson (19:57)
since i've been at greensfelder when i joined here in 1997 i think it was we had 65 attorneys and then prior pre-merger i think we were up to we were somewhere between 150 to 165 you know depending on what time period it was

Christopher Swing (20:14)
time period it was.

So we had grown quite a bit but just looking at the legal landscape and clients are demanding more from their law firms. They want more bench strength, they want more specialties, they you all the things that your clients are looking for and so we wanted to grow and we had been doing some growing by bringing in small practice groups from other firms but not a transformative one like

Dawn Johnson (20:16)
So we had grown quite a bit, but just looking at the legal landscape, mean, clients are demanding more from their law firms. They want more bench strength. They want more specialties. They, you all the things that your clients are looking for. And so we wanted to grow and we had been doing some growing by, you know, bringing in small practice groups from other firms, but not a transformative one like

we did last year.

And so we have been looking at various partners and there's that whole, so it's a really challenging process trying to find the right partner. So what we did, we did hire a consulting firm that specializes in law firm mergers. And I think that was extremely helpful because trying to navigate the whole process.

Christopher Swing (20:46)
So we have been looking at various partners and there's that whole, so it's a really challenging process to find the right partner. So what we did, we did hire a consulting firm that specializes in law firm mergers and I think that was extremely helpful because trying to navigate the whole The consultant we were working with, she identified a number of different

Dawn Johnson (21:07)
we the consultant we were working with, you know, she identified a number of different

firms and people that they were working with. So it was nice to have, you know, we would get spreadsheets with different law firm possibilities and stats to the extent that they could reveal the information to us. And we would examine those. And we met with a number of different firms. And I remember going to some of these firms and they were they looked like they were great partners. But

Christopher Swing (21:12)
So it was nice to have spreadsheets with different law firm possibilities and stats to the extent that they could reveal the information to us and we would examine those and we met with a number of different firms and I remember going to some of these firms and they looked like they were great partners.

One of the things that I think I learned from this whole process was really the importance of talking to your partners and what do they want. As I mentioned, I've been here for 28 years. have a number of partners who are long-term employees here and attorneys and we have a culture that is very important and no one wanted to lose that culture. That was the number one thing that we kept hearing. And so

Dawn Johnson (21:35)
One of the things that I think I learned from this whole process was really the importance of talking to your partners and what do they want. As I mentioned, I've been here for 28 years. We have a number of partners who are long-term employees here and attorneys. And we have a culture that is very important. And no one wanted to lose that culture. That was the number one thing that we kept hearing. And so,

Christopher Swing (22:03)
We were, some of the people we were talking to, were, for lack of a better phrase, be small about. And we were not gonna have.

Dawn Johnson (22:03)
We were, some of the people we were talking to, we were, for lack of a better phrase, gonna be swallowed up. And we were not gonna have

Christopher Swing (22:12)
people seats on the board, directors, example, from governments,

Dawn Johnson (22:12)
equal seats on the board of directors, for example, from governance.

Christopher Swing (22:16)
those sorts of things. they just weren't, well, first of all, they weren't acceptable to the board. And they weren't, we knew they weren't going to be acceptable to our fall partners. And so even though they looked like they would be great, had offices in places where our client needs to do that, the national practice where a lot of our clients were, a lot of our practices are focused. When you look, when we took the steps,

Dawn Johnson (22:16)
those sorts of things and they just weren't well first of all they weren't acceptable to the board and they weren't we knew they weren't going to be acceptable to our fellow partners and so even though they looked like they would be great they had offices and places where our clients we do that the national practice where a lot of our clients were a lot of our practices are focused

When you look, when you took the step

back and we looked at how things were going to shake out, it just wasn't going to be acceptable to our partners. And number one at the top of the list was was the culture. And so. You know, that's we had talked to this. We had talked to Omar before, and so we went back to them and, you know, the timing was right and.

Christopher Swing (22:49)
And so, we had talked to this, we had talked to before and so we went back to them and the timing was right.

And what I really liked about what the board did.

Dawn Johnson (23:05)
What I really liked about what the board did

pre-merger was when we identified Ulmer and we thought this is a good fit for us, we arranged a lot of pre-merger meetings before the vote was ever taken by each firm. We had meetings in our offices, we had meetings in their offices in Ohio and elsewhere.

Christopher Swing (23:08)
pre-merger was when we identified Elmer and we thought this is a good fit for us. We arranged a lot of pre-merger meetings before the vote was ever taken by each one. We had meetings in our offices, we had meetings in their offices.

Ohio and elsewhere, and

Dawn Johnson (23:28)
and we would go to their offices as they would come here and people would get to meet each other. And I kind of liken it to when you meet somebody like when I first met you, Chris, like you just know when you click with somebody, you kind of get that feeling, right? I think we all know what that's like. And that's kind of what it felt like with Olmer. Their culture is really aligned with ours.

Christopher Swing (23:28)
we would go to their offices, they would come here and people would get to meet each other. And I kind of liken it to when you meet somebody like when I first met you Chris, like you just know when you click with somebody, you kind of get that feeling right. think we all know what that's like. And that's kind of what it felt like. Their culture is really aligned with ours. And it's important to them when we go

Dawn Johnson (23:53)
And it's important to them when we go to

Christopher Swing (23:56)
to

their offices, you just get that feeling that this is, I can work with these people. that was really important to us. Number one, the culture and keeping the green folder culture that was so important to people. And to me, quite frankly, and the board. when

Dawn Johnson (23:56)
their offices, we got you just get that feeling that this is I can work with these people. And that was really important to us. Number one, the culture and keeping the Greensfield culture that was so important to people. Into me, quite frankly, in the board. And.

really when you

are entering into something like this, you really have to not only do your due diligence with the finances and all the other policies and procedures and everything to see if how that's all going to work out. But you have to think about I think the people has, to be number one, because you've got to recognize whatever kind of organization you have.

Christopher Swing (24:15)
entering into something like this, really have to not only do your due diligence with the finances and all the other policies and procedures and everything to see if how that's all going to work out. But you have to think about I think the people has, you be number one, because you've got to recognize kind of organization you have,

how are they, how are you going to mesh with these people? And we really felt like we found a partner.

Dawn Johnson (24:37)
how are you gonna mesh with these people? And we really felt like we found a partner

Christopher Swing (24:42)
And I think that's why it's been successful. Now we're just one year into certainly the partnerships that we've had already been been challenging, but and it's reenergized some of our partners because they have new opportunities for work and we have

Dawn Johnson (24:42)
who is equal to us. And I think that's why it's been successful. Now we're just one year into it. But certainly the partnerships that we've had already, it's been challenging, but also exciting. And it's re-energized some of our partners because they have new opportunities for work. And we have...

Christopher Swing (25:02)
depth in some practices that we didn't have before really on both sides of the table. And so I think

Dawn Johnson (25:02)
depth and some practices that we didn't have before, really on both sides of the table. And so I think,

Christopher Swing (25:08)
you know

Dawn Johnson (25:08)
you know,

So we went and.

actually had individual meetings with partners ourselves. I would go talk to people that I've known for years, you know, what are your concerns about this? Everybody has concerns when you're going to merge with another law firm when you've been, you know, we've been this way for all these, actually our firm was celebrated its 125th anniversary during COVID. So we've been around for a long time and we've been successful and our culture is what it is, right? And so people were really,

Christopher Swing (25:14)
actually had individual meetings with partners ourselves. would go talk to people that I've known for years. What are your concerns about this? Everybody has concerns. You're gonna merge with another law firm. We've been this way for all these, actually our firm was that celebrated its 125th anniversary during COVID. So we've been around for a long time and we've been successful and our culture is what it is, right? And so people were really

anxious about that. is the culture going to change? one. And then of course, another question people have is, well, is my job safe? my benefits going to change? Is my pay going to change? All those other questions that people have. And I think part of the leadership, know, an important part of leadership is being transparent with what we know. This is how they operate. This is how we operate.

Dawn Johnson (25:44)
anxious about that. How is the culture going to change? Number one. And then of course, another question people have is, well, is my job safe? Are my benefits going to change? Is my pay going to change? All those other questions that people have. And I think part of the leadership, you know, an important part of leadership is being transparent with what we know. This is how they operate. This is how we operate.

Christopher Swing (26:12)
We think we're going to be able to get best practices from both of those and merge those, but also being able to admit that we don't have all the answers, because we sure didn't. And I also learned when I was going through this process is to trust my partners. And I'm not an M &A lawyer, for example. We've got some M &A lawyers on the board that we trust them. They know what they're doing.

Dawn Johnson (26:12)
We think we're gonna be able to get best practices from both of those and merge those, but also being able to admit that we don't have all the answers, because we sure didn't. And I also learned when I was going through this process is to trust my partners. And I'm not an &A lawyer, for example. We've got some &A lawyers on the board that I, you we trust them. They know what they're doing

and they can advise us on how this is all gonna work and what are the, you know, the new membership agreement.

partnership agreement. and the other thing we were going from being a professional corporation to a partnership. And so we went from being W2 employees to now having to do K1s, all these things that make people very anxious, changing our health insurance, changing our 401k, all of these things that you have to work through for to merge law firms. It's a lot. And those things are ongoing.

as we are speaking today, all those policies needed to be updated and changed and are still in the process of it. So it's not a quick process by any means. But the good news was that being open, talking, being transparent with my, you our partners, the board providing all the information it had that it could share and led us to have a unanimous vote in favor of the merger.

at both firms. mean it was and it and that was such a wonderful day. It was you know February 1st of 2024 and and being able to achieve that was I think an accomplishment that I'm quite proud of as being a member of the board of directors at the time. So with M &A a very

Christopher Swing (27:53)
So with &A, that's a very interesting business.

the best advice I can give to anybody that's trying to do an &A transaction is to expect the unexpected. Because there will be plenty of them. And I think your point was dead on. You do all this due diligence, And everybody kind of has a vision of as far as like,

Dawn Johnson (27:57)
best advice I can give to anybody that's trying to get an in-hand transaction is to check the website because there will be plenty of them.

And I think your point was that on, you do all this due diligence, And everybody has a vision as far as

what does this look like after? But rarely does it go exactly as planned. So give us, if you can chair, what some of the biggest challenges that you guys maybe faced that you weren't expecting.

Christopher Swing (28:16)
What does this look like after? But rarely does it go exactly as planned. give us, if you can share, what some of the biggest challenges that you guys maybe faced that you weren't expecting.

Obviously, for anyone who's gone from a W2 to a K1, they know exactly what she was just talking about because that causes a lot of heartburn.

Dawn Johnson (28:34)
Obviously for anyone who's gone from a W-2 to a K-1, they know exactly what she was just talking about because that causes a lot of heartburn.

Christopher Swing (28:42)
And I'm sure it did for even you personally, right? I mean, that's a big transition.

Dawn Johnson (28:42)
And I'm sure it did for you, even you personally, right? I mean, that's a big transition.

Christopher Swing (28:49)
For those of you who don't know, a lot of times, you know, it could be March and April and you still aren't sure what you made last year per year K1, which is way different than, hey, I deposited X number of dollars and that's what my W2 is going to show. Plus, you know, some insurance and stuff. But so.

Dawn Johnson (28:49)
For those of you who don't know, a lot of times it could be March, April, and you still aren't sure what you made last year per year K1, which is way different than, hey, I deposited X number of dollars and that's what my W2 is going to show plus some insurance and stuff. So

give us some insight. What were some of the challenges that maybe popped up or that you guys had to overcome in the process? Yeah, and I think I've mentioned some of those already.

Christopher Swing (29:08)
Give us some insight, like what were some of the challenges that maybe popped up or that you guys had to overcome in the process?

Dawn Johnson (29:18)
The biggest for the partners, think, is that one. It's just a completely different way of doing things. And even if you have clients and you deal with this in your own practice of law, it's still, when you have to do it yourself, is quite a change. But merging computer systems and document management processes, email, accounting systems.

Christopher Swing (29:18)
The biggest for the farmers I think is that one. It's just a different way of doing things. And even if you have clients and you deal with this in your...

practice law, it's still, when you have to do it yourself is quite a change.

computer systems and documents, email, accounting systems,

every system that you have that you run a business.

Dawn Johnson (29:41)
every, I mean literally every system that you have that that you run a business

with, you have to decide how are you going to make these things into one, right? And thankfully we have a lot of very smart people who can figure all that out. And I'm not going to sit here and say it was smooth and I mean we're still working through some of this stuff.

And there's some bumps along the way and you try to make sure that it's not impacting your clients to the best of your abilities. I mean, so those sorts of challenges are very real and I don't know how you get around them. You don't. You just have to work through them and trust that you have the people on board or you bring people in that can help you to do that.

And we went from a completely different computer system where we had our desktops and now we have a little laptop we carry home every night. And actually, I love it. I can sit on my couch and work or on an airplane or whatever. But things just with the docking system and

everything had to be examined and is still being examined. As I mentioned, some of the policies and procedures are still changing. And the thing is, being flexible is important because you may start doing it this way and say, isn't really working. So we are going to change. And of course, people don't like change. mean, and we just went through this huge change, merging with another firm. And so when you're faced with additional change, when you thought,

okay, things are starting to get a little smooth here. And then you get another email that we have to deal with a particular problem. But I would say overall, speaking now a year out that I think things are good and they're moving, they're working smoothly. I haven't seen my practice impacting. People are like, well, how's it, you

How's it impacting your practice? I feel I come into work every day. I don't feel any different. I mean, I just have more colleagues and I have new and updated systems to use. have a combined IT firm that is phenomenal. I those sorts of things you just have to work through. Yeah, I I just remember you being there at meeting or at my house. can't remember which like I got to take my laptop back because they're program.

Christopher Swing (31:46)
Yeah, I mean, I just remember you being either at a meeting or at my house. I can't remember which and you're like, yeah, I got to take my laptop back because they're programming

it they want it this weekend. And so there's definitely some inconveniences that come along with going through a process like that. So, you know, kind of transitioning a little bit into I know you have a faith background. How does that affect?

Dawn Johnson (31:55)
they wanted this weekend. And so there's definitely some inconveniences that come along with going through a process like that. So kind of transitioning a little bit into, I know you have a faith background, how does that affect

kind of your leadership? Whether that be inside of your practice or inside the organization?

Christopher Swing (32:14)
kind of your leadership, whether that be, you know, inside of your practice or inside the organization,

you know, what, how does that play into your leadership and how has that helped to maybe.

Dawn Johnson (32:24)
How does that play into your leadership and how does that help to maybe

mold your leadership style?

Christopher Swing (32:31)
mold your leadership style

as something that's important to you.

Dawn Johnson (32:36)
Well, I try to do what's right. I don't know if that sounds kind of oversimplified maybe, but in trying to be compassionate and have empathy for people, understand where they're coming from, and I think just...

Christopher Swing (32:38)
I try to do what's right.

Anyway, that sounds kind of oversimplified maybe, but.

in trying to.

Be compassionate and have empathy for people.

And you know, I think just

really listening to my heart when I'm trying to make decisions and sometimes, I my points at meetings or whatever. Like I said, it's not always the most popular to take, but just knowing that I think I'm the right thing by speaking for people who wouldn't be speaking otherwise.

Dawn Johnson (33:03)
really listening to my heart when I'm trying to make decisions and sometimes when I make my points at meetings or whatever it's like I said it's not always the most popular position to take but just knowing that I am I think I'm doing the right thing by speaking for people who wouldn't be speaking otherwise and you

know

Christopher Swing (33:23)
went to church are back this and going to church was very important to us and my parents always taught golden rule others as you want to be treated and they also

Dawn Johnson (33:23)
we went to church, we are Baptist and going to church was very important to us. And my parents always taught me, the golden rule, treat others as you want to be treated. And they also

taught me

Christopher Swing (33:38)
taught me

Dawn Johnson (33:40)
you know, to have compassion for other people who are not as fortunate as you and to, and that, that is how I think it has impacted my leadership and how I have, when I have identified problems, I try to do something about it or at least bring it to somebody's attention to see how things can be improved.

Christopher Swing (33:40)
to have compassion for other people who are not as fortunate as you and that is how I think has impacted my leadership and how I, when I have identified problems, I try to do something about it or at least bring it to somebody's attention to see how things can be improved.

Sometimes I think as a lawyer, it can be somewhat difficult because we are dealing with human beings as clients, right? And trying to, we also have our ethical duties as lawyers, but that I think is separate and apart from just my own belief system and my own values.

Dawn Johnson (33:58)
Sometimes I think as a lawyer, it can be somewhat difficult because we are dealing with human beings as clients, right? And trying to, and we also have our ethical duties as lawyers, but that I think is separate and apart from just my own belief system and my own values.

Christopher Swing (34:22)
Dealing with lawyers sometimes on the other side can be very difficult.

Dawn Johnson (34:22)
Dealing with lawyers sometimes on the other side can be very difficult.

Christopher Swing (34:26)
sometimes I don't like the way I'm treated want to lash out and I just have to take a step back and try not to do that's not my client's best interest. having been raised by parents that really were role models to me as far as

Dawn Johnson (34:26)
Sometimes I don't like the way I'm treated and want to lash out and I just have to take a step back and try not to do that because that's not in my clients best interest. know, having been raised by parents that really were role models to me as far as

how to treat people and how to help other people.

Christopher Swing (34:44)
how to treat people and how to help other people.

Dawn Johnson (34:50)
Those things are ingrained in me and will be for the rest of my life and that's what I've tried to do not only through service at my law firm but through service on community nonprofits and other organizations that I've been involved with over the years.

Christopher Swing (34:50)
Those things are ingrained in me and will be for the rest of my life and that's what I try to do not only through service at my law firm but through service on community nonprofits and other organizations that I've been involved with over the years. How has your leadership style changed over time? And right, wrong, or indifferent?

Dawn Johnson (35:12)
right wrong or incorrect.

Chris (35:14)
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Christopher Swing (35:46)
I don't know what your

perspective is, but I said, you know, once I became kind of successful and I use that term very lightly. But like once. Once my own psyche started to recognize my success, I started to care a whole lot more about other people. What was that like in your life and how have you evolved, you know, from that?

Dawn Johnson (35:58)
Once my own psyche started to recognize my success, I started to care a whole lot more.

Christopher Swing (36:12)
hungry young lady that's going to get, you know, that writes the absolute best stories through, you know, going to law school and then into a law firm where you eventually become a leader of the law firm and leading them into even a major change of like merging with another organization. How has your style evolved?

Dawn Johnson (36:16)
My leadership style.

Christopher Swing (36:33)
Well, I can't, when I started here at

Dawn Johnson (36:33)
Well, I had when I started here at

the law firm, had a I had a mentor who really got me started in the in my interest in franchise law, which is the area of law that I focus on. And he was very good at assembling teams and recognizing the people on the team for what they did good.

Christopher Swing (36:38)
mentor who really got me started in my interest in franchise law which is the law that I focus on. He was very good at assembling teams and recognizing the people on the team for what they did good.

Dawn Johnson (37:00)
And he was he was very generous You

Christopher Swing (37:00)
And he was he was very generous.

extra tickets to something he would give them to me so my husband and I could go to an event or something that I as an associate would not have otherwise been able to go to. And so I really feel fortunate that I had that experience because I saw how he assembled teams

Dawn Johnson (37:05)
know if he had extra tickets to something he would give them to me so that my husband and I could go to an event or something that I as a young associate would not have otherwise been able to go to and so I Really feel fortunate that I had that experience because I saw how he assembled teams

And

Christopher Swing (37:29)
and

Dawn Johnson (37:31)
that was a very successful way to run really complex cases and everybody sort of had the role and it really worked well. I think as I kind of moved on and then became a partner is that I then, and I still do this a little bit.

Christopher Swing (37:31)
That was a very successful way to run really complex cases and everybody sort of had a role. And it really worked, really worked well.

I think as I, you know, as I kind of moved on and became a partner is that I didn't, and I still do this a little bit,

maybe a lot of it, but let's say less so. I still try to do everything myself. And I recognize in myself that I need to do a better job of delegating. So I think I have been doing it better and have been working on delegating use my team members.

Dawn Johnson (37:52)
maybe a lot of it, but let's say less so. I still try to do everything myself. And I recognize in myself that I need to do a better job of delegating. So I think I have been doing a better and have been working on delegating more to use my team members.

But I still like working with teams and I find it, I like to recognize

Christopher Swing (38:10)
I still working with teens and find it...

like to recognize

the work that my team does for me. And I like to get their opinions. It's not about it's not all about me. I worked for a federal judge here in St. Louis. Judge knows he once told me that he wants to surround himself by people who are smarter than he is. And I like that. And I agree with that. I don't feel like this is all about me. I am maybe the partner in charge of a particular

Dawn Johnson (38:16)
the work that my team does for me. And I like to get their opinions. It's not about it's not all about me. And I worked for a federal judge here in St. Louis. Judge knows who once told me that he wants to surround himself by people who are smarter than he is. And I like that. And I agree with that. I don't feel like this is all about me. I am maybe the partner in charge of a particular

case. But

Christopher Swing (38:42)
case but

I want to surround myself by people who are really smarter than me and I ask them for their opinion. we're associates. I want to know what you think about this case. How should we handle this? What is the strategy that we should be considering here? Should we be considering this or that? And I want I value their opinions and oftentimes say you know what that's like a great idea or well I like that part of the idea but let's let's use part of that let's think about this. So I really didn't

Dawn Johnson (38:44)
I want to surround myself by people who are really smarter than me and I ask them for their opinion. Younger associates, I want to know what you think about this case. How should we handle this? What is the strategy that we should be considering here? Should we be considering this or that? And I want I value their opinions and oftentimes say, you know what? That's a great idea. Or, well, I like that part of the idea, but let's let's use part of that. Let's think about this. And so I really do

Christopher Swing (39:12)
I

Dawn Johnson (39:12)
think it's important to.

Christopher Swing (39:12)
it's important too.

seek opinions from your team members and actually use those or try to find a way to incorporate what they are offering. So it's that collaboration with your team. I think that's where I've evolved over time. And so like just sitting and trying to figure it out on my own, do it myself and me figure this out. It's like, if you have a team of people, then I think more ideas are better than just what I may think is the way to

Dawn Johnson (39:13)
seek opinions from your team members and actually use those or try to find a way to incorporate what they are offering. So it's that collaboration with your team. I think that's sort of how I've evolved over time instead of like just sitting and trying to figure it out on my own. Do it myself and me figure this out is like, if you have a team of people, then I think more ideas are better than just what I may think.

is the way to handle

a particular matter. in helping people identify their strengths and what they can bring to the table, and I like the fact that if you are working with a team, it's kind of like what happened with the merger, right? On the board, we have people who have &A expertise. We have people who have an HR, they're in our labor and employment practice. so drawing on people's strengths that way,

Christopher Swing (39:47)
in helping people identify their strengths and what they can bring to the table. And I like the fact that if you are working with a team, it's kind of like what happened with the merger, right? On the board, we have people who have M &A expertise. have, you know, people who have an HR, you know, they're in our layman employment practice. And so drawing on people's strengths that way to

Dawn Johnson (40:11)
to get the best result for your client. And so I think that's how my leadership has evolved over time.

Christopher Swing (40:11)
get the best result for your client. And so I think that's how my leadership has evolved over time.

I think I've always sought out people's opinions, but I've done it more in a more deliberate way by delegating more work and giving the people who work for me opportunities to come up with strategy and help me work through whatever the legal issue is and also just letting

Dawn Johnson (40:17)
I think I've always sought out people's opinions, but I've done it more in a, I think in a more deliberate way by through delegating more work, but, and giving the people who work for me opportunities to come up with strategy and help me work through whatever the legal issue is. And also just,

letting them have interaction with the client

Christopher Swing (40:41)
them have interaction with the client.

and so that they feel like a part of

Dawn Johnson (40:45)
so that they feel like they're part of the team.

Christopher Swing (40:48)
So what kind of advice would you give to a young and up and comer basically, maybe not necessarily with a journalist background, but in law that has a similar desire to be effective, maybe be part of the leadership eventually of

Dawn Johnson (40:48)
So what kind of advice would you?

Christopher Swing (41:13)
of the firm, like, what advice would you give to them?

Dawn Johnson (41:16)
Well,

this is what I always tried to do. You have to make yourself indispensable to your supervisor. And I think that ultimately translates to the service that you provide to your client or customer.

Christopher Swing (41:17)
This is what I always try to do.

make yourself indispensable to your supervise.

And I think that ultimately translates to the service that you provide to your client or customer.

Dawn Johnson (41:33)
make yourself indispensable. And you know, that means, working hard, doing the best you can, producing the best work product that you can and

Christopher Swing (41:33)
Make yourself indispensable. that means hard, doing the best you the best work product that you can.

and delivering it on a timely basis. Those are important factors to me.

Dawn Johnson (41:45)
delivering it on a timely basis. Those are important factors to me.

Christopher Swing (41:50)
I often call a heart grader, as they say, but I like to call it attention to detail, and so I expect that of people who work for me. why I kind of, that's the first piece of advice I would give. The second one is really, doesn't have to be in law or any, it could be in any field, but when I first started,

Dawn Johnson (41:51)
often called a hard grader as they say. But I like to call it attention to detail and so I expect that of people who work for me. And that's why I kind of, that's the first piece of advice I would give. The second one is really doesn't have to be in law or any, it could be in any field but when I first started,

Christopher Swing (42:13)
as

Dawn Johnson (42:15)
as a lawyer, I really just put my head down and I thought, you I took other people's advice and just learn to be a good lawyer because, just be a good lawyer first and worry later about trying to get clients.

Christopher Swing (42:16)
a lawyer, I really just put my head down and I thought, you know, I took other people's advice and want to be a good lawyer. be a good lawyer first and worry later about trying to get the money.

Dawn Johnson (42:28)
The landscape has changed now, and of course, we incorporate as I call it business development early on. But I really think that is. A misnomer, I think if you.

Christopher Swing (42:28)
landscape has changed now and of course we incorporate as I call it business development early on but I really think is a misnomer I think if you

Find something that you're passionate about. And whether that's, like I found my passion was franchise law. But I'm talking in the broader scheme of life in the community, for example. Find something that you're passionate about. What really like, tugs at your heart or gets you like excited. And go volunteer for that organization as a volunteer or on the board of directors. Believe me, there's a lot of organizations that are looking for people.

Dawn Johnson (42:42)
Find something that you're passionate about and whether that's like I found my passion was franchise law But I'm talking in the broader scheme of life in the community for example find something that you're passionate about what what really like tugs at your heart or gets you like excited and go volunteer for that organization as a volunteer or on the board of directors believe me there's a lot of organizations that are looking for people

Christopher Swing (43:11)
who will serve on their board and actually do something. And then get on the board and actually do something. Or on a committee and actually do something. Don't just put it on your resume, right? And the way that that happened, so for many years, I mean, I look back at my career and I really worked hard. And that was part of, I think, the reason that I was successful. I worked really hard. I had a good mentor. But.

Dawn Johnson (43:11)
who will serve on their boards and actually do something. And then get on the board and actually do something. Or on a committee and actually do something. Don't just put it on your resume, right? And the way that that happened, so for many years, I mean, I look back at my career and I really worked hard. And that was part of, I think, the reason that I was successful. I worked really hard. I had a good mentor. But.

Christopher Swing (43:37)
In the process, I kind of lost myself as far as my passion for helping people. I mean, I feel like I was helping my clients, but that whole piece of the community, I kind of forgot about, and I really missed our candidate every year for the leadership program here in St. Louis, called Publicist St. Louis.

Dawn Johnson (43:37)
In the process, I kind of lost myself as far as my passion for helping people. I mean, I felt like I was helping my clients, but that whole piece of the community I kind of forgot about and I really missed that. our firm sponsors a candidate every year for the leadership program here in St. Louis called Focus St. Louis

Leadership, and I was nominated and got accepted to that program.

Christopher Swing (43:58)
leadership and I was nominated and got accepted to that program.

Dawn Johnson (44:04)
about 12 years ago and it was one of the best experiences of my life and we were for those who are may not be familiar with Focus St. Louis and it may be similar programs in other cities as well you go through this months long program where you are exposed to all different

Christopher Swing (44:04)
about 12 years ago. And it was one of the best experiences in my life. we those who are may not be familiar with the St. Louis and maybe similar problems in other cities as well. go through this month long program where are exposed to all different

areas of the community. really was regional because we extended over into Southern Illinois for us as well, as well as other counties in the St. Louis

Dawn Johnson (44:20)
areas of the community. It really was regional because we extended over into southern Illinois for us as well as well as other counties in the St. Louis

Christopher Swing (44:30)
region but education, government, the criminal justice system, business, really all different aspects and we are have a all day Friday and either a half day or a full day on Saturday, two days in a row so you're not you can't you can't be checking your

Dawn Johnson (44:30)
region but education, government, the criminal justice system, business, really all different aspects and we are have a all-day Friday and either a half day or a full day on Saturday two days in a row so you're not and you can't you can't be checking your

Christopher Swing (44:50)
computer working this is you have to be immersed in this to actually get the benefit of it and they have leaders coming in from those various parts of

Dawn Johnson (44:50)
computer working. You have to be immersed in this to actually get the benefit of it. And they have leaders come in from those various parts of

Christopher Swing (45:00)
community

Dawn Johnson (45:00)
the community to talk to you about whatever the issues are. it really, I thought as a former journalist, I knew a lot about St. Louis, I knew nothing. And I certainly didn't know about the depth of some of the problems that face the community leaders in all these areas.

Christopher Swing (45:00)
to talk to you about whatever the issues are and it really I thought as a former journalist I knew a lot about saying well it's probably nothing and I certainly didn't know about the depth of some of the problems that space you know the community leaders and all these areas and that really opened my eyes and at the end of the program they asked us to consider what are you going to do for your community and so this was a prime opportunity for me to examine like what really took in my heart and what tugged at my heart was

Dawn Johnson (45:17)
and that really opened my eyes. And at the end of the program, they asked us to consider what are you going to do for your community? And so this was a prime opportunity for me to examine like what really tugged at my heart and what tugged at my heart was

Christopher Swing (45:30)
the superintendent of the St. Louis public schools at the time came and spoke to our group and we also went with a small group to

Dawn Johnson (45:30)
the superintendent of the St. Louis Public Schools at the time came and spoke to our group. And we also went with a small group to

Christopher Swing (45:43)
various schools, elementary schools in St. Louis and I was assigned to one in North St. Louis and I have to, to this day I'll never forget that experience. Because I compared it to my experience in elementary school and I was

Dawn Johnson (45:44)
various schools, elementary schools in St. Louis and I was assigned to one in North St. Louis and I have to, to this day I will never forget that experience. Because I compared it to my experience in elementary school and I was.

Christopher Swing (46:00)
I was sad. I'm emotional. talk about this because it was so another like life changing experience for me. then, know, I continue to be bothered by the way the property tax system works and the kids in the inner cities, the condition of their schools compared to those the wealthier parts of the community. This is not just here. It's everywhere. I got then got involved with one of my

Dawn Johnson (46:00)
I was sad, let's just say. I get little emotional when I talk about this because it was another life-changing experience for me. But then I continue to be bothered by the way the property tax system works and the kids in the inner cities, the condition of their schools compared to those in the out of wealthier parts of the community. This is not just here, it's everywhere.

I got then got involved with one of my

Christopher Swing (46:27)
So the simple as classmates was involved in an organization that the time was called College Summit and it was a program that was in place in the public schools in St. Louis where we went in and helped students. These are not the A students, but the B and maybe the some of the C students write their college essays to try to get into college and we would do a training for a week

Dawn Johnson (46:27)
focus st. Louis classmates was involved in an organization that at the time was called college summit and it was a program that was in place in the public schools in st. Louis where we went in and helped students These are not the a students but the B and maybe the some of the C students write their college Essays to try to get into college and we would do a training for a week

Christopher Swing (46:52)
and then go in for a weekend and help them do that and that whole experience was like.

Dawn Johnson (46:53)
and then go in for a weekend and help them do that. And that whole experience was life

Christopher Swing (46:57)
And

Dawn Johnson (46:57)
changing for me. And so that was really something that tugged at my heart and I got involved with that and then became the president of that organization here, the local advisory board. It's now called Peer Forward nationally. But that's my advice to people who ask me for my advice or that I work with is that,

Christopher Swing (46:57)
so that was really something that took my heart. And I got involved with that and then became the president of that here was a local advisory board. It's now called peer forward nationally. But my advice who ask me for my advice that I work with is don't go into that thinking that that's oh this is going to get clients. Right. It may ultimately.

Dawn Johnson (47:16)
And don't go into that thinking that that's, this is going to help me get clients. It may ultimately,

but I have found through my own experience and all the boards that now I have served on since that one is that you may ultimately get clients, but the benefit of, you know, how, you know, this service that you are performing, whether you change one kid's life or one person's life

Christopher Swing (47:22)
I found through my own experience and all the boards that now I have served on since that one, that you may ultimately get clients with the benefit of, know, you know, that service that you are performing, whether you change one kid's life or one person's life.

Dawn Johnson (47:40)
is far going to exceed anything else that you're going to do in life, at least from my perspective.

Christopher Swing (47:42)
going to exceed anything else that you're going to do in life, least from my perspective.

Dawn Johnson (47:46)
you know, I have, that is expanding my network, no doubt. And being, and then later, you know, connecting the people as we talked about earlier today, connecting people that you meet along the way in these various organizations and your life experiences to each other is, you know, makes you, I think,

Christopher Swing (47:49)
you know, I have that is expanding my network, no doubt. being and then later connecting people as we talked about earlier today, connecting people that you made along the way in these various organizations and your life experiences to each other is, you know, makes you I think.

gives me good feeling that I've been able to connect to my friends and different, or, know, may never have met each other, but may benefit from knowing each other and knowing each other. So those are some, think, the key pieces of advice I give, you know, when I'm talking to people because law is very competitive.

Dawn Johnson (48:09)
gives me a good feeling that I've been able to connect two of my friends in different, or may never have met each other, but may benefit from knowing each other in one way or another. So those are some, think, of the key pieces of advice I give when I'm talking to people because the law is very competitive.

Christopher Swing (48:28)
and younger, you know, that people are, I got to go get clients. And

Dawn Johnson (48:28)
younger and younger, people are like, I gotta go get clients.

Christopher Swing (48:33)
yes, you need to be a good lawyer, but why don't you just try to live life and expand your reach in the community. And these things will just fall into place. Yeah, I mean, I couldn't agree more. You know, if you look back at the just sheer involvement I've had in different boards, I mean, that's what prepared me to be a leader. That's what prepared me to be

Dawn Johnson (48:33)
Yes, you need to be a good lawyer, but why don't you just try to live life and expand your reach in the community and these things will just fall into place. Yeah, I I couldn't agree more.

That's what prepared me to be a leader. That's what prepared me to be

Christopher Swing (48:56)
a good board member, paid board member. mean, the skills that you learn, you know,

Dawn Johnson (48:56)
a good board member, a paid board member. mean, the skills that you learn, you know.

Christopher Swing (49:02)
I think of a couple of people off the top of my head like Mike Metzger and some of the guys that first convinced me to get involved in something that I didn't really want to do necessarily. You know, like one of the best boards that I've ever been on is a water co-op that I joined in.

Dawn Johnson (49:07)
some of the guys first convinced me to get involved in something that I didn't really...

Well, so on that point, Chris, I like that point because as you know, I'm on the Eastern Illinois University Foundation Board of Directors and I will never forget I got the call from the CEO asking me if I would be interested serving on that. The foundation manages the investments for the university, administers scholarships and grants and I was like, I don't think you're the right person. I don't know anything about finance.

Christopher Swing (49:38)
don't think you have the right person. don't know anything about finance.

He's like, oh no, no, you were recommended for this and I think you'd be good. was again, something that I probably wouldn't have thought about on my own and like your service on that board, it's like, yeah, I don't know if you have the right person here. I think you want an accountant or something like that.

Dawn Johnson (49:41)
He's like, no, no, I, you you were recommended for this and I think you'd be good. And it was, again, something that I probably wouldn't have thought about on my own. like your, you know, your service on that board, it's like, yeah, I don't know if you have the right person here. You know, I think you want an accountant or something like that. And

it's been and it's been really one of my favorite boards because like I said, it got me re-engaged with my undergrad.

Christopher Swing (50:01)
It's been and it's really one of my favorite ones because like I said, it got me re engaged with my undergrad

university. I get to go back to campus all the time. I met a lot of great people, including you. And I learned I've learned a lot about.

Dawn Johnson (50:08)
university, get to go back to campus all the time. I met a lot of great people, including you. And I've learned a lot about

finances and investments and things. And it was challenging. And so I think you also have to challenge yourself in some of these endeavors that you take on. Yeah, I mean, I think the biggest thing that became super obvious to me was that I had

Christopher Swing (50:22)
finances and investments and things and it was challenging. And so I think you also have to challenge yourself in some of these endeavors that you take on. Yeah, I mean, I think the biggest thing that became super obvious to me was that I had

a clear vision as to how they were going to solve all of their problems. And then I get into it and I realized how complex all these organizations are and all the competing agendas and all of the

Dawn Johnson (50:38)
clear vision as to how they were going to solve all their problems and then I get into it and I realize how complex all these organizations are and all

and

Christopher Swing (50:51)
intentionality, but the just lack of wherewithal. I think, you you made some good points. You know, the part of the thing that I decided when I got on the Alumni Association Board at Eastern was if what I start with and what I finished with is the same, then what a waste of 10 years of life. And so I wasn't going to sit there and just let happen whatever was going to happen.

Dawn Johnson (51:09)
I wasn't going to sit there and just let happen whatever was going to happen.

Christopher Swing (51:17)
You know, I'm not saying I definitely was a bull in the Chinese shop early on in that time and probably wasn't the most effective way to get get done what I wanted to get done. But but over time, you know, you kind of figure out how things work and how you can have impact. And, you know, there there's I've not ever taken away an experience where I was working for a nonprofit and thought, man, I didn't get anything out of

Dawn Johnson (51:17)
I'm not saying I definitely was a bull in the Chinese shop early on in that time. It wasn't the way to get done what I wanted to get done. But over time, you kind of figure out how things work and how you can have impact. I've not ever taken away an experience where I was working for a nonprofit and thought, I didn't get anything out

of it.

Christopher Swing (51:44)
That's not why I went into it, but I can tell you, like after the fact, I'm not sure that you shouldn't at least consider going into it for that reason, because I can tell you that every, every experience, whether, I was the president of the chamber in Effingham County, of which I don't live in Effingham County. I just worked there for the last 12 years, 13 years. I was the on the middle of my big brother's big sister's advisory board for Effingham County.

Dawn Johnson (51:44)
That's not why I went into it, but I can tell you like after the fact.

not sure that you should at least consider going into it for that reason because I can tell you that every every experience whether I was the president of the chamber in Effingham County of which I don't live in Effingham County I just worked there for the last 12 years 13 was the on the middle of my big brother's big sister's advisory board for Effingham County

as a of fact I didn't even get a 20 under 40 award in Coles County but I did in Effingham County

Christopher Swing (52:11)
As matter of fact, I didn't even get a 20 under 40 award in Coles County, but I did in Effingham County.

You know, I run an organization there. I guess nobody knows me where I come from. But, you know, the Alumni Association Board at Eastern, now I sit on the People's Bank and Trust Board of Directors. All of these different organizations help me to be who I am today. And like you could take out

Dawn Johnson (52:17)
I run an organization there. guess nobody knows where I come from. Alumni Association Board at Eastern.

People's Bank and Trust Board of Directors, all of these different organizations helped me to be who I am today. you could take out

any single piece and there would be something that would come out with it. So if you could wind time back and say, OK, well, don't do that, I wouldn't be who I am today because each one of those different pieces of my experience built me into the holistic leader that I am.

Christopher Swing (52:39)
any single piece and there would be something that would come out with it, right? So if you could wind time back and say, okay, well, don't do that. Like, I wouldn't be who I am today, you know, because each one of those different pieces of my experience built me into the holistic leader that I am.

Dawn Johnson (52:59)
So, you know, one of the things that I'm always intrigued about leadership and I think this work,

Christopher Swing (52:59)
So, you know, one of the things that I'm always intrigued about leadership and I think this is where it

you know, Ian kind of tags in with me too is like.

Dawn Johnson (53:06)
know, eating kind of tags in with me too is like, whether it's intentionally like we're faith focused and that causes us to be a leader from that perspective or

Christopher Swing (53:10)
whether it's intentionally like we're faith focused and that causes us to be a leader from that perspective or

I haven't met anyone yet that can turn off their faith and be a leader. And so, you know, I always wonder like, how did these intersect in different people's lives? And I know that you have a faith background. so, you know, what is that? How does that affect

Dawn Johnson (53:23)
that can turn off their faith and be a leader. And so, you I always wonder, like, how do these intersect in different people's lives? And I know that you have a faith background. you know, what is that? How does that affect,

you know, your leadership on a day-to-day basis or in general in life and or maybe even in some of the volunteering aspects that we've talked about?

Christopher Swing (53:38)
you know, your leadership on a day to day basis or in general in life and or maybe even in some of the volunteering aspects that we've talked about.

Dawn Johnson (53:50)
Well, I think it's your guiding post, right? I mean, in your decision making, right? I don't know if, it sounds kind of simple, but I mean, I go back to my own upbringing and I had role model parents who, and I was,

Christopher Swing (53:50)
it's your it's your guiding your guiding post

in your decision making, right? I don't know, it sounds kind of snuff.

I I go back to my own.

Dawn Johnson (54:08)
It's part the way I was raised and taught to do, you try to do what's right. And if you make a mistake, admit it, which I still to this day, I hear my mom and dad's voice in my head. When I do make mistakes, I tell people I'm sorry, I made a mistake, I'm being able to admit to that. But I think your faith has to be, that's your, you know.

Christopher Swing (54:19)
When I do make mistakes, tell people, I'm sorry, I made a mistake being able to admit to that. But I think your faith has to be that's your guide for

everything that you do, whether it's work or your marriage or your friendships or service on organizations. I don't know, it's pretty simple.

Dawn Johnson (54:31)
your guide through everything that you do, whether it's work or your marriage or your friendships or service on organizations. I don't know. It's pretty simple.

Christopher Swing (54:43)
From an outside perspective, the legal world is kind of viewed as

Dawn Johnson (54:43)
From an outside perspective, the legal world is kind of that was suspicious and there are these fair or unfair caricatures of the legal world.

Ian Stamps (54:46)
The legal world is kind of viewed with suspicion and there are these fair or unfair caricatures of the legal world

and you know kind of scummy sorts of attorneys and taking advantage of people and in the legal world is notoriously gray. It's more gray than we want it to be black and white, though we would think of it as black and white and that's a hard road to walk for someone who does care about black and white. So

Dawn Johnson (54:57)
you kind of scummy sorts of attorneys and taking advantage of people and the legal world is notoriously gray. It's more gray than we want it to be black and white, though we would think of it as black and white. And that's a hard road to walk for someone who does care about black and white.

So

as a person with a faith background, and you've even mentioned, you even separate from that ethics as an attorney, ethics as a journalist, there's sets of ethics with those guiding principles. What are the challenges of navigating a very gray, morally ambiguous field? Because that's gotta be a regular thing that you come up against. Yeah, and it's interesting that you

Ian Stamps (55:14)
as a person with a faith background, and you've even mentioned, you even separate from that, ethics as an attorney, ethics as a journalist, there's sets of ethics. With those guiding principles, what are the challenges of navigating a very gray, morally ambiguous field? Because that's got to be a regular thing that you come up against. Yeah, and it's interesting that you

Dawn Johnson (55:40)
that

Ian Stamps (55:41)
that you mentioned that because I have to tell people that I ended up in two professions that are, I wouldn't say universally hated, but are disliked. It is funny because I never perceived myself.

Dawn Johnson (55:41)
you mentioned that because I often tell people that I ended up in two professions that are, I wouldn't say universally hated, but are disliked. And it's funny because I never perceive myself as being a...

When I was a journalist, every day I was trying to get both sides of the story. If somebody wouldn't pick up my call, I was like, this is going to be a one-sided story. It's not going to be objective. That's what you're taught in journalism school. It has to be objective. My thoughts or my pro, it does not matter. And then you move to the law and you're right.

The law can be interpreted in so many different ways. When you're, you know, we're reading the case law or the regulations or whatever we're dealing with and you know, there are, can read it this way, you can read it that way and you're advocating for your client. But you know, I go back to the fact and so I sometimes I tell my clients, you may not like what I'm telling you. You know, but this is the way, you know, this is the way I am saying this. Now I can argue, you know,

There are ways to take the facts and argue them a certain way, but you have to stay within the boundaries of the truth, right? And it is difficult to navigate, but you have to, right? You have to because you're ethically bound to do that, but also,

Ian Stamps (57:03)
You have to because you're ethically bound to do that. But also,

Dawn Johnson (57:08)
I'm bound just for my own moral compass, as you said, right? So.

Ian Stamps (57:09)
I'm bound just for my own moral compass, right? So.

Dawn Johnson (57:13)
When you know, and the law is, think, a really interesting field because of that, because they're really I'm trying to think about through my career. And I don't know if I've ever had what you would call a case that is black and white. There there's always some shade of, you know, gray in there or.

Ian Stamps (57:13)
We, you know, and the law is, think, a really because of that, really, I'm trying to think about through my career, and I don't know if I've ever had what you would call a case that is black and white. There's always some shade of, you know, gray in there,

or, yeah.

Dawn Johnson (57:35)
Yeah,

Ian Stamps (57:36)
And that's, that's also what makes the challenging and fun and all those other things is because when get to handle for a client, it's like, okay, this, I'm reading this lawsuit against my client, this looks terrible. This mean, they did this, then of course I talk to the client and there's a whole different side to this story. And it's weaving that story together within the bounds of the law and the

Dawn Johnson (57:36)
and that's also what makes it challenging and fun and all those other things is because when I get a case to handle for a client, it's like, okay, I'm reading this lawsuit against my client and this looks terrible. I mean, if they did this, But then of course I talk to the client and there's a whole different side to this story and it's weaving that story together within the bounds of the law and the truth.

you know, to try to get the best outcome for your client. You know, it's not. yeah, it's very difficult and challenging. And some days it's, you know, it's exhausting sometimes quite truthfully. I think it's true in any field. And I can imagine for you for yours, temptation to cut some corners, the temptation to take advantage of that.

Ian Stamps (58:00)
to try to get the best outcome for you.

I think it's true in any fields and I can imagine for you for yours, the temptation to cut some corners, the temptation to to take advantage of that loophole.

And and really kind of maneuver behind the scenes into some deceptive ways. We all know that happens. And again, it happens across the board in every field. But. But those who have that moral compass, that sense of integrity.

Dawn Johnson (58:24)
and really kind of maneuver behind the scenes in some deceptive ways. We all know that happens, and again, it happens across the board in every field.

those who have that moral compass, that sense of integrity,

it becomes much more challenging, a bit more harder to achieve a level of success because you can't shortcut things. And someone else who doesn't deserve it can't shortcut and get in line in front of you. And that's a really frustrating process to have to process and deal with. But this is what we do.

Ian Stamps (58:35)
it becomes much more challenging, a bit more harder to achieve a level of success because you can't shortcut things. And someone else who doesn't deserve it can shortcut and get in line in front of you. And that's a really frustrating process to have to process and deal with, but this is what we do. Yeah,

Dawn Johnson (58:51)
Yeah, it is. And

Ian Stamps (58:52)
it is.

Dawn Johnson (58:53)
I mean, I have certainly things right now that I would put in that category where I think, counseling to the site is not doing things ethically and or misstating things. But you know what, I I answer to myself and so.

Ian Stamps (58:54)
certainly things right now that I would put in that category where I think counseling on their side is not doing things technically or mistake But you know what, I answer to myself. And so.

Dawn Johnson (59:09)
I want to be able to live with myself as far as what I put on a piece of paper. And if I made a mistake, I certainly want to correct that with the court. If I have made a mistake in stating a fact or misstated the law, sometimes lawyers read the case wrong or they didn't know it was overturned. so, I mean, those are what I would call inadvertent mistakes. But there are attorneys out there who

Ian Stamps (59:09)
I want to be able to live with myself as far as what I put on a piece of paper. And if I made a mistake, I certainly want to correct that with the If I have made a mistake in stating a fact or a mistake in the law, sometimes lawyers read the case wrong or they didn't know it was overturned. so those are what I would call inadvertent mistakes. But there are attorneys out there who...

Dawn Johnson (59:37)
as you say, don't operate ethically and are a little what I would call loose with the facts, let's say. And that's that's troubling. And you can certainly point that out, you know, into the court. But. And that's where I think

Ian Stamps (59:49)
and that's where I think

your team becomes very important to you. It's the feedback with your team and the people that you work with. We have general counsel. I consult with him all the time. I have no problem consulting with him and saying, hey, can I run this situation by you? This issue came up, you know.

Dawn Johnson (59:50)
your very important too. Is the feedback with your team and the people that you work with, you know, we have general counsel, I consult with him all the time. I have no problem consulting with him and saying, hey, can I run this situation by you? issue came up, you know,

I just don't know how to deal with it. having that,

Ian Stamps (1:00:09)
I just don't know how to deal with it. having that

Dawn Johnson (1:00:15)
Resource available is very helpful to me, but also the members of your team who are familiar with your case and you could talk through how you want to make an argument to make sure that I mean we have an obligation if there you know certain law if there is a case that's directly opposite of what you're arguing here you have to point it out to the court and not everybody does that.

Ian Stamps (1:00:15)
resource available is very helpful to But also the members of your team who are familiar with your and you can talk through your how you would make an argument to make sure that, I mean, we have an obligation if there's a law, if there is a case that's directly opposite of what you're arguing here, have to put it out to court, and not everybody does that.

Dawn Johnson (1:00:34)
And of course there are, as you say, not loopholes, but there are exceptions and, you know, is this really directly opposite to what I'm saying here? I mean, there's all kinds of things that come into the analysis of whether something needs to be said this way or that way.

Ian Stamps (1:00:34)
And course, there are, as you say, not loopholes, but there are exceptions. you know, is this really directly opposite to what I'm saying here? I mean, there's all kinds of things that come into into the analysis of whether something needs to be said this way or that way.

Christopher Swing (1:00:51)
So you've built an amazing career, run an amazing organization, or helped run an amazing organization. What do you hope people remember you by, whether that be at Eastern or your nonprofits or even here? What do you hope that years from now people remember about you?

Ian Stamps (1:00:53)
So you've built an amazing career, run an amazing organization, or helped run an amazing organization. What do you hope people remember?

Dawn Johnson (1:00:54)
Amazing.

Ian Stamps (1:01:06)
by whether that be an Eastern or your nonprofits or even here. What do you hope that years from now people remember about you?

Dawn Johnson (1:01:08)
or your nonprofits or your...

Well I think there's a couple things. One is that what I've already mentioned is I try to do what's right. May not always succeed but I try to do what's right.

Ian Stamps (1:01:19)
Well, I think there are a couple things. One is that whatever I mentioned is I try to do what's right. I not always succeed, but I try to do what's right.

Christopher Swing (1:01:21)
One is that, what I've already mentioned is I try to do what's right. I may not always succeed, but I try to do what's

Dawn Johnson (1:01:30)
I'm

Christopher Swing (1:01:30)
right. I'm a compassionate person and I give.

Dawn Johnson (1:01:32)
a compassionate person and I give you know my time and my talent my money if needed to those people who

Ian Stamps (1:01:33)
person and

you know, my time and my talent, my money if needed to those people who are

Christopher Swing (1:01:40)
needed to those people who are

less fortunate than I am. And I often sit in my office in the evenings. I work late and I have, my office looks to the west. have a beautiful view. I have windows on two sides. I literally, I can show you my phone. I often take a picture of the sunset and I thank God and I thank my parents

Ian Stamps (1:01:42)
less fortunate than I am. And I often sit in my office in the evenings, I work late and I have, my office looks to the west, I have a beautiful view, I have windows on two sides and I...

Dawn Johnson (1:01:42)
fortunate than I am. And I often sit in my office in the evenings. I work late and I have, my office looks to the west. I have a beautiful view. I have windows on two sides and I literally, I can show you my phone. I often take a picture of the sunset and I thank God and I thank my parents.

Ian Stamps (1:01:59)
Literally, I can show you my phone. often take a picture of the sunset and thank God and I thank my

for giving me the opportunity to sit in that office and do what I do every day and look at that sunset.

Christopher Swing (1:02:08)
For giving me the opportunity to sit in that office and do what I do every day and look at that sunset.

Dawn Johnson (1:02:08)
for giving me the opportunity to sit in that office and do what I do every day and look at that sunset.

Ian Stamps (1:02:14)
I talked to my mom every morning and every evening. My dad is no longer with us. But a lot of times on the home I'll say thank you for giving me the opportunity to be able to do what I'm doing. I do thank my parents because they encouraged me to do whatever I wanted. They just wanted me to be happy.

Dawn Johnson (1:02:15)
I talk to my mom every morning and every evening. My dad is no longer with us. But a lot of times on the way home, I'll say, thank you for giving me the opportunity to be able to do what I'm doing. I do thank my parents because they encourage me to do.

Christopher Swing (1:02:15)
I talk to my mom every morning and every evening. My dad is no longer with us. But a lot of times on the way home I'll say thank you for giving me the opportunity to be able to do what I'm doing. And I do thank my parents because they encourage me to do whatever I wanted to. They just wanted me to be happy.

Dawn Johnson (1:02:34)
whatever I wanted to, they just wanted me to be happy

and whatever profession I chose, but they already supported me 100%. And so I feel fortunate to have opportunities that a lot of other people don't get to You mentioned this earlier that not everybody is on a board of directors at a law firm or aspires to other.

Ian Stamps (1:02:37)
And whatever profession I chose, they always supported me 100%. And so I feel fortunate to have opportunities that a lot of other people

Christopher Swing (1:02:37)
So I feel fortunate to have opportunities that a lot of other people don't get to have. You mentioned this earlier that not everybody is on board of directors at a law firm.

Ian Stamps (1:02:45)
You mentioned this earlier that not everybody is on a board of directors that a law firm aspires to other leadership

Christopher Swing (1:02:52)
I

Dawn Johnson (1:02:54)
you know leadership positions and I feel fortunate that I have these opportunities and have taken the challenges and I include my brother's death in that is that what was could have You

Ian Stamps (1:02:55)
positions and I feel

Christopher Swing (1:02:56)
fortunate that I have these opportunities and have taken the challenges and I include my brother's death in that is that what could have been

Ian Stamps (1:02:56)
fortunate that I have these opportunities and have taken the challenges and I include my brother's death in that is that what was could have been.

Christopher Swing (1:03:08)
Some people unfortunately have experienced similar tragedies, have gone the opposite direction. I took that challenge and turned it into an opportunity in many different ways. That's how I want to be remembered is that I've been able to help people.

Dawn Johnson (1:03:08)
some people

Ian Stamps (1:03:08)
Some

Dawn Johnson (1:03:09)
unfortunately when have experienced similar tragedies have gone the opposite direction. I took it. I took that challenge and turned it into an opportunity and you know in many different ways and and I think that's how I want to be remembered is that I've been able to help people who

Ian Stamps (1:03:09)
unfortunately, have experienced similar tragedies, have gone the opposite direction. I took that challenge and turned it into an opportunity in many different ways. I think that's why I want to be remembered is that I've been able to help people.

Dawn Johnson (1:03:34)
haven't had those opportunities and maybe never will have those opportunities.

Ian Stamps (1:03:34)
have had those opportunities and maybe never will have those opportunities.

Christopher Swing (1:03:34)
haven't had those opportunities and maybe never will have those opportunities.

Well, can tell you from my time at Eastern, I'm super appreciative of the time that you commit to the university. It's obviously very important to me. I gave 10 years to be on the Alumni Association Board of Directors. And I know you've been on the foundation for a while, and you constantly look for new and unique ways to participate. You're obviously a distinguished alum. We recognize you as such.

Ian Stamps (1:03:39)
I can tell from my time at Eastern, I'm super appreciative of the time that you commit to the university. It's obviously very important to me. I gave 10 years to be on the Alumni Association Board of Directors. And I know you've been on the foundation for a while, and you constantly look for new and unique ways to participate. You're obviously a distinguished alum. We recognize you as such.

Dawn Johnson (1:03:39)
I can tell my time at Eastern...

It's obviously very important to me. I gave 10 years to be on the Alumni Association Board of Directors. And right now you've been on the Foundation for a while and the Council have looked for new and unique ways to participate. You're obviously a distinguished alum and we recognize you as

Ian Stamps (1:04:03)
And got to tell your story, most of you just heard, which is basically what your story was, I think, the night that you received your

Christopher Swing (1:04:03)
And you got to tell your story, most of you just heard, which is basically what your story was, I think, the night that you received your award.

Dawn Johnson (1:04:03)
And you got to tell your story, which most of you just heard, which is basically what your story was, I think, that I received here.

Ian Stamps (1:04:12)
award. And I'm just thankful that we have friendship and that your firm does great work for us and that you are allowing us to come in here and have the opportunity to meet with you today. Thank you, Chris. All right, well.

Christopher Swing (1:04:13)
And I'm just thankful that we have friendship and that your firm does great work for us and that you are allowing us to come in here and have the opportunity to meet with you today. Thank you, Chris. All right. Well.

Dawn Johnson (1:04:14)
Just thankful that we have a friendship and that your firm does great work for us.

Thank you, Chris. All right. Well,

Christopher Swing (1:04:29)
We will catch you all very soon, so tune in to the next episode of Faithful.

Dawn Johnson (1:04:29)
we will catch you all very soon. So tune in to the next episode.

Ian Stamps (1:04:29)
We will catch you all very soon. So tune into the next episode of Faithful.